A Multicultural Landscape: National Parks and the Macedonian Experience
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6. Focus Group 1: Macedonian Pensioners

The venue The first of our two Macedonian focus group sessions was held at Rockdale Migrant Resource Centre on 10 April 2000. The session was convened by Sharon Veale, NPWS Historian and myself. The group consisted of four men and six women. Also in attendance were Gorjana Milosevski, the then Community Settlement Services Worker, and Toni Najdov, a freelance translator.[67] The session ran from 10 am until 3 pm during which time we broke for lunch and coffee.

The Migrant Resource Centre is used by a large variety of community groups and was already familiar to the participants. We met in a meeting room which Gorjana had decorated with posters of Macedonian landscape in order to stimulate discussion. The sessions were recorded on audio tape and this report is developed from detailed notes and the tapes themselves. We briefly considered video taping the proceedings but decided that this could be seen as intrusive and would possibly inhibit rather than enhance the sharing of information.

In convening these discussion groups we were purposely acknowledging the participants’ ethnicity as they themselves define it, not as it might be defined by conventions such as census protocol.

Difficulty of translation Obviously, the need for a translator posed certain problems. We quickly discovered that our discussants were passionate and sometimes argumentative about the subjects we raised. It was often difficult to limit the polyphony of voices. Certainly, it was beyond the power of any translator to convey everything that was going on in the room at such moments. Consequently, the notes and recording do not capture the overall complexity of the discussion. Also, it was often difficult, in reviewing the tape, to discern who was being translated. It is likely that such limitations will occur whenever a translator is required.

When the participants arrived we sat down around a table. The men seated themselves at one end and the women at the other. Sharon and I introduced ourselves and we thanked everyone for coming. I explained the purpose of the gathering: that the NPWS is interested in how different ethnic groups understand parks and the ways in which they use them. I emphasised our interest in how different cultures have different understandings of the land and nature. I also stated an interest in finding better ways of communicating with people who don’t have English as their first language. In the first session before lunch we would talk about the land and nature in both Macedonia and Australia.

The participants Each participant was asked to give their name and state when they arrived in Australia. Although I was inquiring merely of the year in which they arrived, most gave the specific date. The anniversary of their arrival was clearly important in their personal calendars.

The dates indicate that with one exception, the discussants were part of the 1960s wave of Macedonian migration to Australia. We considered it inappropriate to ask their ages in a public forum. But the dates of arrival and the fact that they were recruited from a Macedonian pensioners organisation suggest that participants were in their sixties or a little older. Half the group originated from towns or cities. The remainder were from country villages. They all originated from the Vardar Macedonia, the former Yugoslav republic.

Rural life epitomises Macedonia The group was asked what memories they had of the Macedonian countryside. It was clearly remembered with considerable affection. ‘Beautiful,’ was an immediate response. Someone added ‘Beautiful milk.’ They described a life that is utterly remote from the urban experience. People lived on small farms and worked on the property. In many respects they were self-sufficient.

Despite half the group coming from towns, images of the ‘good life’ in the village seemed to dominate everyone’s impressions. Even the town folk had relatives in the country with whom they would stay during the summer. There was great nostalgia for the rural life where the food was healthy, the water pure, the air clean. They spoke of the cherries they would harvest each summer; the strawberries picked from the fields. Life in the country was ‘healthy and good’.

The discussants seemed aware of the nostalgia of their recollections. It seems beautiful now said one of the men, but he still remembers having to walk two to three km to get fresh water. There was no electricity, no radios, no refrigeration. During the summer there were few opportunities for recreation. Work on the land dominated their lives. But during the winter, when the villages were often snowbound for a good six months, there was more free time.

The incorporation of Macedonia into Yugoslavia in 1944 brought many changes. Rural collectives were established and remote villages received electricity for the first time. May Day festivities became commonplace, typically celebrated with an outdoor sredzelo and parade.

National parks in Macedonia One of the informants, Vladimir Ivanovski, spoke of a national park near Bitola. It is called Pelister and was gazetted as a national park shortly after 1945. It contains a ski resort and has two small lakes. People go there to hike and relax, especially on holidays or special religious days. He informed us that every village has its own special religious day when people gather and dance. The national park now contains a resort, restaurant and ski lift facilities. This prompted the question of whether the idea of ‘wilderness’ or untampered nature was prevalent in Macedonia. They answered in the negative. Everyone agreed that in Macedonian national parks one would expect to see a considerable amount of human influence upon the landscape.

Protected species Palista National Park is famous for a type of pine known as molika which grows exclusively in this area. I asked if you are permitted to chop it down and they laughed. It is heavily protected by law. The group explained that rangers patrol the national parks. Picking plants or shooting animals must be approved. While there are restrictions, the kind of blanket prohibitions on disturbing plants and animals found in Australia are without precedent. Some shooting is permitted at certain times of year and it is acceptable – to be expected, in fact – that people will pick strawberries wherever they might be growing. The flavour of the earth, as manifest in fruit, air and water, seemed important to all the informants. Just speaking about it aroused emotion and pride. ‘My village is the best,’ cried one of the men when this was being discussed.

Photos of Macedonia When we asked if anyone had brought photos taken in Macedonian national parks, several images were presented. Immediately noticeable about these and all the other photos shown by informants, was the centrality of people in the images. There was no sense of photographing a mountain, a tree, a river, for their own sake. This seems to reflect strongly on how nature is regarded in Macedonian culture. It is something in which people are always imbricated, as Zora Koteuska explained when she showed a photograph from a Macedonian national park in which she and her husband are depicted in front of a forest. Between them and the forest is a large sculpture of a man poised with a boulder which he is about to throw. It was explained that the sculpture depicts a famous resistance fighter from World War II. When he ran out of ammunition he took to throwing rocks at the enemy.

Historical associations The photo prompted recollections from various people concerning the resistance movement during the war. One woman’s father had been involved in the struggle; others remembered taking food to partisans in gaol. The discussion was reminiscent of Paul Stephen’s memories of the pine forests and their association with Roman occupation.[69] The forest and mountains were redolent with all sorts of historical associations. Events from World War I were also mentioned. In this respect, their perception of landscape as a fundamentally historical space that is inscribed with the narratives of human events seems very different to the way national park landscapes are usually perceived in Australia.

Moving to a new landscape So what was it like departing from a place so full of meaning and so rich in sensation? ‘Quite difficult – with tears in our eyes,’ was one response. One of the men described the difficulties he had had on coming here: the family pressure and the need for work. Appreciation of nature was a low priority in the early years. They found jobs in factories and began working and saving in order to buy a house. They recalled that $8,000-12,000 was the sum required for a house in the 1960s. A deposit of $2,000 was needed. They assured me it was the absolute norm for women as well as men to work during this period. Child minding was, and to a large degree still is, the domain of grandparents.

Cultural difference Most of the group seemed to experience quite profound problems in attempting to orientate themselves in Australia. Vladimir described how he didn’t know where he was going at first. He described nervousness about speaking his own language in public situations. When asked if there was a lot of discrimination, the group responded with a resounding ‘Yes!’ They were commonly referred to as ‘new Australians’ or ‘wogs’.

Their feeling of ‘outsiderness’ was probably compounded by their initial conviction that they were here only temporarily. The intention was to stay a while, save money and go back home. Some in the group described an almost daily despair at their new situation. ‘Tomorrow I will go back home,’ was a common thought. Some said the first three years were especially hard. We asked what induced them to stay? They replied that their attachment to Australia was actually cemented by return visits to Macedonia. When they saw the changes happening there they started appreciating Australia. In addition, their children were exerting pressure. They didn’t want to leave what to them was home.

National park visits in Australia A considerable variation in experience was reported when we asked about their first national park visits. Some were taken on picnics shortly after their arrival. Others waited several years. One thing on which they all agreed was that Royal National Park had been favoured for picnics at Christmas and also Easter because of its proximity from both Sydney and Wollongong. Everyone in the group had been to such picnics on numerous occasions.

Of all the elements of the picnic, the barbecue was described as fundamentally important. It is the centrepiece of a Macedonian picnic in Australia, and while many people have their own portable barbecues, a frequent complaint about the parks is the inadequacy of barbecue facilities. Eating, drinking and socialising were the important activities at a picnic. When asked if they would go for a walk, the group seemed unenthusiastic. They would certainly not have done so during the early days because of the perceived lack of footpaths, signs and fear of snakes.

Fear of attack was a reason for not doing so now. It seems that the bush is a place of danger for many informants. Such sentiments are echoed in other research. The Parks Victoria Report on Ethnicity and Parks Usage Project found that across all the cultural groups consulted there was ‘a strong association between outdoor open spaces and the propensity for contact with drug use (especially syringes), muggers, robbers, rapists, child molesters and murderers!’[70]

Social cohesion On reaching Australia it seems that the Macedonians clung together. Even in the workplace they were often among their own people and spoke Macedonian. Hence the problems in acquiring English. I asked if their national park visits ever included non-Macedonians. They replied no, though it was common to meet other nationalities or ethnic groups in the parks.

The main food eaten at the barbecues is pork. In the 1960s butchers would often give them a head of pork for free. These days they have to pay. They eat the pork very well done and always enjoy alcohol with their picnics. Brandy or grappa are favoured drinks. The group showed many photos of park visits in Australia.

Favoured parks Numerous venues around Sydney including Picnic Point, Kiama and Royal National Park were mentioned when we asked them about sites for recreation. Sometimes they went to the Blue Mountains and Jenolan Caves. Often a group of families would look at a map, decide on a place and drive off into the country without a clue what they were visiting. It was enough just to find a nice place, stop there and get out instruments and make some music.

In the 1960s they were not aware of the difference between national parks and other reserves. ‘A park is a park,’ explained one respondent. But they assured us that they did know that there were rules and regulations associated with the parks: not to touch wildlife and not to hunt. They knew about this because their children would interpret signs for them. They all agreed that their children had played an important role in interpreting Australia for them.

Picnics at Audley All the informants agreed that the Christmas gatherings at Audley in Royal National Park had a special place in the social calendar. While its significance as an occasion for meeting relatives and kinsfolk is obvious, the group cited it as especially important as an occasion for young people to intermingle. In addition, the young generation often plays a special role as a kind of ‘advance troop’, sometimes arriving as early as 3 am when they stake out a picnic site for the family group. Audley is the preferred location but if parking proves utterly impossible they move on to Wattamolla or somewhere else in Royal National Park.

As Vera and Draga had already stated, the importance of the picnic as a meeting place for young people must be seen in relation to the strict moral codes that were operative within the Australian Macedonian community in the 1960s and 1970s. (Most people believe they have now relaxed considerably.) The pensioners related that a tightening of mores to do with socialising and dating was one of the ways in which they responded to the shock of adjusting to a new society.

Relaxing the codes In some ways, the Audley picnic might be seen as a social safety valve. While sex between young people was deemed improper, there was a strong desire that youngsters would meet, befriend and eventually marry other Macedonians. These days ‘mixed marriages’ (relationships with non-Macedonians) are more common and acceptable. But in the 1960s the very thought was abhorrent. We were told that this was in part due to a fear of the unknown. It was not that Macedonians did not want to mix with others but rather their lack of exposure to different cultures and the foreignness of the idea of becoming allied through marriage with an unknown family. They feared that outsiders could be criminals or worse. So families stuck together and the village structure was to some extent replicated in the Australian context. The pensioners believed that their children were happy with the situation. They were always eager to attend picnics and other Macedonian social events. They believe that enthusiasm among the young is now waning.

The Australian bush What did they think of the Australian forest when they first encountered it? Most of the informants agreed that the Australian landscape is not as beautiful as Macedonia. They thought the trees were ‘sad’ or ‘depressing’ because they were dry and grey. They compared them to the trees in Macedonia which grow in ‘a particular way that you don’t find here’.

This discussion led to the subject of the smell of the Australian bush. The group unanimously agreed that the Australian forest has no smell whatsoever. This is in contrast to the Macedonian pine forests, the smell of which they describe as intoxicating. One man described his joy when he came across a pine plantation during a country drive. He stopped the car enraptured, and they had a four hour barbecue in the forest. The high value attached to radiata pine plantations was firmly endorsed by the group. Many Macedonians buy holiday houses near plantations because of these fond associations.

Aboriginal sites Informants were asked about their knowledge of Aboriginal sites. They reported a general ignorance about the subject although they all agreed they would like to find out more. They cited a lack of information as the major problem.

Interestingly, everyone in the group had met Aboriginal people. This seemed surprising since it pointed to a higher rate of familiarity than one would find in a sample of Australian-born White people. They explained that they had met Aboriginal people in the factories where they worked. Many informants described experiences they had had with Aborigines in the work place, indicating that they were quite diverse. The group reported that one of the really unique things about coming to Australia was encountering people from such a plethora of ethnic backgrounds.

Community relations We asked the group whether they had ever had problems with the NPWS. One mentioned problems in the early days to do with rubbish disposal. They had left theirs lying around and were given a slap over the wrist but could understand why. They also mentioned problems with unclean toilets, lack of toilet paper and insufficient parking. The toilet problems they acknowledged were perhaps related to other visitors rather than neglect on the part of staff.

This generally positive assessment of the Service was a little surprising. Gorjana had previously told me that some Macedonians had had serious confrontations with rangers in the past. It is possible that the focus group format, opening up many cheerful memories for the participants, is consequently less informative in soliciting criticism. On the other hand, it might simply be a case where altercations were considered minor and were eventually forgotten.

Improvements in the facilities at Audley were recognised by all the discussants. The electric barbecues were described as ‘beautiful’. The benches and picnic tables were greatly appreciated. They considered themselves up to date with regulations concerning fire bans etc, though these had to be explained at first. One man said he was familiar with fire regulations in Macedonia.

Signage When asked about the need for signs in languages other than English, the discussants agreed, though they seemed to think the need was greater for languages such as Chinese rather than their own. They also conceded that a visual symbol is probably more effective than something written.

Preferred media We spoke about other ways of communicating with the Macedonian community. They stated that the Special Broadcasting Services (SBS Radio and Television) are extremely popular, especially the Macedonian radio broadcasts. They also listen to community stations that broadcast in their language. On the other hand, it should not be assumed that information in English will never reach them. They advised us that a great deal of English language TV gets translated by their children and passed on.

The focus group expressed great enthusiasm for other, more personal ways of passing on information. Given the role played by these older people as child minders, much of what they know gets passed directly to the younger generation. Several of the women said they would like stories about the Australian bush to pass on to grandchildren.

As the discussion continued, we identified ways in which this might be achieved. There was popular support for the idea of visiting Aboriginal sites with an Aboriginal sites officer and translator. A regular program of bus excursions already exists for the pensioners group. Guided walks through national parks, developed from the already existing NPWS Discovery Rangers program, could be developed for this purpose.


[67] Toni has since filled Gorjana’s position as Community Settlement Services Worker.

[68] Focus Group Discussion with Macedonian Pensioners. Multiculturalism and National Parks Research Project Field Tapes 4 & 5. Following quotations from this source.

[69] Interview with Paul Stephen, 5 May, 2000. Multiculturalism and National Parks Research Project Field Tape 8.

[70] Report on Ethnicity and Parks Usage Project, p. 30.

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